Enough abstract stuff already, let's see what the formal and alternative forms of the derivative look like in practice. Created by Sal Khan.
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- i guess im not understanding something here. Its seems in both the formal and alternate limits as h approaches 0 and x approaches e 0/0. So does the limit not exist or did i skip a step?(49 votes)
- The value (e * 0) / 0 doesn't exist, but the limit (ln(e + h) - ln(e)) / h as h approaches 0 does exist. That is why we use limits: they allow us to get a handle on values without breaking algebra.(93 votes)
- Why did someone make the alternate if there was a formal already?(11 votes)
- There are always many ways to solve Math Questions.
Therefore in the subtopic Derivatives there are also many ways to solve the same question.
The Formal way is used when you want a general equation in which you just put a x value and get the Derivative at that particular x.
This can be used when you have to find many Derivatives on the same Function.
But when you want the value at just one particular x value you can use Alternate method.
This will save time for that question.
Whichever you use, you'll get the same answer.
Sal told us the Alternate method so that we can clear our concepts.
Once our concepts are clear we can understand everything nicely. :)(32 votes)
- is this related to the fact that when u zoom into a curve to high levels, the curve appears to be a straight line, and then you can take points on the straight line (they will be very close to each other when zoomed out), and then find the slope?(13 votes)
- Very astute observation! This is exactly how derivatives work. This definition goes into even further (i.e. more rigorous) detail in real analysis.(18 votes)
- What is the derivative of f(x)=ln x?(6 votes)
- it is
1/x. That might feel a bit odd.
where Khan explains why this is.(16 votes)
- What;s the difference between a normal logarithm and a natural logarithm?(1 vote)
- Logarithm has different bases. Usually, we write them with the base. However, for log base of e (a constant similar to pi) is called natural logarithm, and written as ln without a base (and we know it has the base of e). Similarly, there is a case of log (without any base) is understood to be log base of 10. So natural log is just a normal log with a special base (constant e).(11 votes)
- Why x approaches 0 in formal definition?(1 vote)
- We can conceptualize the tangent line as being a secant line where the two points get closer an closer. If we put the distances between the secant lines close enough (if the difference between them approaches 0) then we will have a tangent line at exactly one point on the function, which we define to be the derivative.(6 votes)
- how do you find the f'(x) of f(x)=x^e^x ?
this is a question given in an exercise book i have that i am really confused with. so i really hope for someone to explain it to me..(1 vote)
- To make this easier to follow, I will replace f(x) with y, though you don't really need to do this.
y = x^e^x
ln y = ln(x^e^x)
ln y = (e^x)(ln x)
Taking the implicit derivative:
(1/y) dy = [ (e^x)(ln x) + (e^x)(1/x) ] dx
dy/dx = y [ (e^x)(ln x) + (e^x)(1/x) ]
dy/dx = ( x^e^x) [ (e^x)(ln x) + (e^x)(1/x) ](5 votes)
- For the alternate definition of the Derivative why can't you say the limit of e approaches x. Isn't the limit if x approaching e the same thing as the limit of e approaching x? Sal discusses at5:24(2 votes)
- e can't approach x, or do anything else, because it's a constant. We can't select different values for it.(2 votes)
- at5:42when the final derivative is Ln(x)-1/x-e as X approaches to e,MY question is that how will we solve it as a limit? I mean how can we solve it using algebraic methods like we did in the Limits topic?(2 votes)
- To prove this limit (calculate from first principles) you need to know the limit based definition of
e... this is covered starting here:
The next video goes through the actual proof (but you should do the previous video first):
Let's say that f of x is equal to the natural log of x, and we want to figure out what the slope of the tangent line to the curve f is when x is equal to the number e. So here, x is equal to the number e. The point e comma 1 is on the curve. f of e is 1. The natural log of e is 1. And I've drawn the slope of the tangent line, or I've drawn the tangent line. And we need to figure out what the slope of it is, or at least come up with an expression for it. And I'm going to come up with an expression using both the formal definition and the alternate definition. That will allow us to compare them a little bit. So let's think about first the formal definition. So the formal definition wants us to find an expression for the derivative of our function at any x. So let's say that this is some arbitrary x right over here. This would be the point x comma f of x. And let's say that this is-- let's call this x plus h. So this distance right over here is going to be h. This right over here is going to be the point, x plus h f of x plus h. Now, the whole underlying idea of the formal definition of limits is to find the slope of the secant line between these two points, and then take the limit as h approaches 0. As h gets closer and closer, this blue point is going to get closer and closer and closer to x. And this point is going to approach it on the curve. And the secant line is going to become a better and better and better approximation of the tangent line at x. So let's actually do that. So what's the slope of the secant line? Well, it's the change in your vertical axis, which is going to be f of x plus h minus f of x-- over the change in your horizontal axis. And that's x plus h minus x. And we see here the difference is just h. Over h. And we're going to take the limit of that as h approaches 0. So in the case when f of x is the natural log of x, this will reduce to the limit as h approaches 0. f of x plus h is the natural log of x plus h minus the natural log of x, all of that over h. So this right over here, for our particular f of x, this is equal to f prime of x. So if we wanted to evaluate this when x is equal to e, then everywhere we see an x we just have to replace it with an e. This is essentially expressing our derivative as a function of x. It's kind of a crazy-looking function of x. You have a limit here and all of that. But every place you see an x, like any function definition, you can replace it now with an e. So we can-- let me just do that. Whoops. I lost my screen. Here we go. So we could write f prime of e is equal to the limit as h approaches 0 of natural log-- let me do it in the same color so we can keep track of things-- natural log of e plus h-- I'll just leave that blank for now-- minus the natural log of e, all of that over h. So just like that. This right over here, if we evaluate this limit-- if we're able to and we actually can-- if we are able to evaluate this limit, this would give us the slope of the tangent line when x equals e. This is doing the formal definition. Now let's do the alternate definition. The alternate definition-- if you don't want to find a general derivative expressed as a function of x like this and you just want to find the slope at a particular point, the alternate definition kind of just gets straight to the point there. So what they say is hey, look, let's imagine some other x value here. So let's imagine some other x value. This right over here is the point x comma-- well, we could say f of x or we could even say the natural log of x. What is the slope of the secant line between those two points? Well, it's going to be your change in y values. So it's going to be natural log of x minus 1-- let me do that red color-- over your change in x values. That's x minus e. So that's the slope of the secant line between those two points. Well, what if you want to get the tangent line? Well, let's just take the limit as x approaches e. As x gets closer and closer and closer, these points are going to get closer and closer and closer, and the secant line is going to better approximate the tangent line. So we're just going to take the limit as x approaches e. So either one of this. This is using the formal definition of a limit. Let me make it clear that that h does not belong part of it. So we could either do it using the formal definition or the alternate definition of the derivative.