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Early Modern: Locke on Personal Identity, Part 2

Part 2 of 3. What makes you the same person as the little kid growing up a number of years ago?  Is the identity of a person tied to the persistence of a body or a soul or something else entirely?  Can we even give any explanation at all of the persistence of a person?  Michael Della Rocca (Yale University) explores some of the puzzles and problems of personal identity that arise from the revolutionary work of the philosopher John Locke.

Speaker: Dr. Michael Della Rocca, Andrew Downey Orrick Professor of Philosophy, Yale University 

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  • male robot hal style avatar for user Aymen Fdhila
    Does that mean that in case of Amnesia (loss of memory) ; the person lose his identity ?
    That seams to me absurd!!
    (10 votes)
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    • male robot donald style avatar for user Eli
      Good question! Consciousness encompasses more than just memory, although identity does start becoming a very difficult subject for those with severe amnesia. Amnesia also does not typically erase all memories entirely. If we follow this logic, you could say that since you do not remember going to an event that it was not actually you who went to that event, but this is not what Locke suggests; It is primarily based on the continuity of consciousness itself.
      (7 votes)
  • ohnoes default style avatar for user Cyan Wind
    What makes soul and consciousness different in Locke's conception? Consciousness is about thought, memory... and only oneself can be aware of his consciousness. How about soul?
    (9 votes)
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    • male robot hal style avatar for user Corey Piper
      One can have a soul without consciousness. As said, a soul is a nonphysical thinking being. Do animals have souls? Why of course. They think all the time. My dog thinks about chasing his tail a lot. But do they have consciousness? AKA Self-awareness? This is debatable. Can an animal ponder earlier memories? Or is it when something happens in an animal's life, his thoughts move on, never thinking back into the past (nor the future, really, for to make predictions, you need data from the past). Again debatable. But personally I believe they do not have consciousness - They merely recognize certain things, not exactly thinking about it though. My dog will remember who I am after weeks of not seeing me. But does he really think about it or is it just instinct to know I am it's owner? It comes down to consciousness vs instinct more or less
      (5 votes)
  • marcimus pink style avatar for user Lisa Victor
    So would Locke's argument of personal identity be plausible in aspect to reincarnation? For example, although controversial, some people, especially children claim to or believe to have memories of being (or that seem to belong to) another person after they have passed on.
    (4 votes)
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  • marcimus pink style avatar for user Raymond Greenwood
    So under Locke's definition of identity, does that mean that people who become senile no longer have the same identity. Also a young child would not have the memories of their later life, so does that mean that the young child does not have the identity of their older self, but the older self has the identity of the younger child.
    (4 votes)
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    • leafers ultimate style avatar for user Scott
      Yes, precisely. The point of senility is in part touched on earlier in the playlist RE: the concept of 'vegetative states', and also in Part 3 of this discussion as you will see, manifest in the 'Brave Officer' problem. It deals with transitivity, and the remembering of some important memories, but forgetting others.
      (2 votes)
  • marcimus pink style avatar for user Savonnah
    So what would you say about a person that has either short-term memory loss or long term memory loss? Are they not the same person because they can't remember their previous thoughts? For example if they can't remember what they did five minutes ago; are they always considered a "new person." Where does their consciousness go?
    (2 votes)
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  • duskpin sapling style avatar for user Aqilah
    what does Locke mean by the words organization of matter?
    (1 vote)
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  • orange juice squid orange style avatar for user Daniel Rigal
    There has to be more to identity than memory, right? Locke is clearly onto something good and useful here but is it not the whole thing.

    Lets take a computer as an analogy. Of course, Locke didn't have this opportunity but the separation of hardware and software within a computer seems relevant enough to make it a better analogy than the plant. The only software the plant has is its DNA and we don't regard two plants with the same DNA as the same plant (e.g. if we take a cutting and grow it).

    If I swap the hard drive from one computer to another compatible computer then, in some practical senses this is the first computer. I actually used to do this with broken PCs and, jokingly, called it "doing a brain swap". In other senses it is not the same computer. In my case, the idea was not to take the brokenness of the original PC hardware into the new PC. Normally this worked well and the user regarded the PC that was returned to them as their original PC fixed, not a new one, so long as it was in the same or a similar case.

    So lets say that I have my memories replaced by Hitler's. My brain would still have its original structure that (to at least some extent) dictates my thought patterns and would lack any physical causees of Hitler's insanity but it would have Hitler's memory. Would that be me or Hitler? I say neither even though the only name that person would remember themselves having would be Hitler's. That person would remember life as Hitler but think about it more as I would than as Hitler himself did. That person, identifying as Hitler, would probably spend a lot of time asking themself "Why did I do all those terrible things? It was awful and it didn't even work, which now seems like the only good thing about it. How could I have been such a monster?" which I am pretty sure that the real Hitler never did.

    So, while memory clearly is a big part of identity, what else are we looking for? Patterns of thought and behaviour? Some of that is hormonal, or otherwise external to the brain and putting identity back into the whole body would seem to undo a lot of Locke's work, or, at least, diminish it considerably.
    (1 vote)
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  • leafers sapling style avatar for user Esse Keen
    I think it is reasonable to think that our memories are somehow stored in our nervous system, and therefore depend on the organization of matter in our nervous system, so why does Locke distinguishes plants from humans? We are as dependent of the continuity in the organization of the matter that composes us as are plants. Our consciousness and the maintenance of our memories are just a by-product of such continuity, such as the ability to photosynthesise is a by-product of the continuity of matter organization in plants.
    (1 vote)
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  • duskpin ultimate style avatar for user Lyle Gonzalez
    Most of the things we do, we can't remember. By Locke's account, in what way are we our past selves to any notable extent? For instance, I can only remember a few of the details of every little thing I did last week--certainly not even half of the things I was consciously aware of when I was doing them. If I think even further back--say, 10 years--I can (with a few minor exceptions) only remember fairly major life events. By this measure, it would seem Lock's criteria actually argues against the idea of a continuous personal identity. We do remember some things, but to define a personal identity only by the ability to remember ANY past actions comes off as falling short of a meaningful definition.
    (1 vote)
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  • male robot hal style avatar for user Corey Piper
    I think the application of worm theory would work here. A person is the same if his time worm is the same as his time worm. Which is easy to imagine and think about
    (1 vote)
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Video transcript

(intro music) Okay, this is part two of our discussion of personal identity over time, and I'm still Michael Della Rocca, identical to the person who gave the part one of this lecture. So let's continue now. We started by discussing the general problem of personal identity over time and how it's related to some more general metaphysical problems. Now I want to begin to look at particular solutions, or attempted solutions, to this problem of personal identity over time. Traditionally, two answers to this problem have been very popular. One might think that the sameness of persons over time consists in what might be called "the sameness of soul over time." On this view, and perhaps this view is attributable to the philosopher Descartes, the soul is a non-physical thinking thing, or thinking substance, and the soul is distinct from the body, though it is, perhaps, associated with the body in important ways. On this quasi-Cartesian view of personal identity, for an earlier person A to be identical to a later person B, it is both necessary and sufficient for the earlier person A and for the later person B to have the same soul. On this view, sameness of body is not relevant to personal identity. The only thing that's relevant to personal identity on this view, this Cartesian view, is the sameness of soul, the sameness of thinking substance. On an alternative answer to this problem, an answer often associated with materialists, sameness of person consists in sameness of body, sameness of the human body. For A to be identical to B, it is both necessary and sufficient that A and B have the same body. On this view, sameness of soul, if indeed we have a soul, is irrelevant to personal identity. Now these are deep and competing accounts of personal identity. On the first view, we are fundamentally souls, or thinking substances. On the second view, we are fundamentally our bodies, our human body. Now, it's a deep insight of Locke to envisage a completely different kind of account of personal identity. His account cuts across each of the two previous accounts in important ways. On Locke's account, sameness of person consists not in sameness of soul nor in sameness of body, but in sameness of what he calls "consciousness." This is the philosophical progress that Locke has given us: to give a completely new account of personal identity in terms of sameness of consciousness. But what exactly does he mean by "sameness of consciousness?" This is a complicated matter, and to answer this question, I want to turn to a completely different kind of case, involving not persons, but plants. This will provide a helpful analogy with Locke's account of persons, if we consider Locke's account of what might be called "plant identity over time." We may never have thought about plant identity over time, but it is important, because it can help us to see the nature of Locke's account of personal identity over time. So let's turn to Locke's account of plant identity, or of organic creatures in general. To answer the question of plant identity over time, let's draw a distinction between the plant itself and the molecules or atoms that make up the plant at any one time. Following Locke himself, let's call the collection of atoms that makes up a plant a "mass of matter." Such a collection of atoms is, for Locke, a physical or corporeal substance. Now, the mass of matter that makes up a particular plant - let's say a rhododendron - let's call her "Rhoda" - okay, Rhoda the rhododendron - now, the mass of matter that makes up a particular plant at a certain time, a time T1 let's say, that mass of matter is different from the mass of matter that makes up Rhoda, that same rhododendron, at T2. That's the beautiful thing about organic creatures: they gain and lose matter all the time. That's just the kind of thing that they do. Now, it's natural to think that Rhoda, the plant itself, persists through this change in masses of matter. It's gaining and exchanging matter with the environment all the time. So there's a change in physical substance. So the mass of matter that constitutes Rhoda at T1 is different from, completely non-identical to, the mass of matter that constitutes Rhoda at T2. And it may well be the case that through some kind of great coincidence, Rhoda loses all of the bits of matter that make Rhoda up at time T1. And so the mass of matter, let's call this mass of matter "one," that constitutes Rhoda at T1, does not constitute Rhoda at time T2. In fact, and this is the coincidence, it could turn out that the mass of matter that constituted Rhoda at time T1 comes to constitute a completely different plant, let's call it "Phyllis," at T2. And at time T2, there's a mass of matter "two," that constitutes Rhoda. So Rhoda's now constituted by mass of matter two, and at time T2, a different plant, Phyllis, is constituted by mass of matter one, the mass of matter that originally constituted Rhoda. We can see from this that we have different masses of matter constituting the same plant at different times, and we have the same mass of matter constituting different plants at different times. Thus, the sameness of mass of matter is neither necessary nor sufficient for sameness of plant. What, then, is necessary and sufficient for the sameness of plant? Locke's answer is clear: for a plant at T1 to be identical to a plant at T2, the earlier plant and the later plant must have the same, or roughly the same, organization, the same way in which matter is structured, and there must be a certain continuity between the organization of the plant at T1, at the earlier time, and the organization of the plant at T2. As Locke indicates, the earlier plant and the later plant must partake of the same life, which is communicated in a continuous fashion to different particles of matter at different times. For a plant to exist at a time is for matter to have a certain organization at that time. And for a plant to persist from one time to another is for there to be a continuously maintained organization of matter, despite the fact that this organization is realized in different molecules, or different bits of matter, at different times. I have touched on this topic of plants not just because I love to talk about plants, but also because the account of the persistence of plants is analogous to Locke's revolutionary account of the persistence of persons. So let's return to persons. For Locke, just as what it is for a plant to exist at a time is for matter to be organized in a certain way, for a person to exist at a certain time is for there to be a thinking, intelligent being, that is, reason and reflection. And more generally, for there to be a person at a give time is for there to be something that has consciousness at a given time. Plant identity requires that there be a substance with a certain organization of matter. Personal identity requires that there be some kind of substance with a certain consciousness and the ability to reflect on itself. And just as it is necessary for plant identity over time that this organization be maintained, even if the physical substances that exhibit this organization change, so, too, it is necessary and sufficient for personal identity over time that this consciousness be maintained even if the substance that exhibits this consciousness changes. So personal identity consists in continuity of consciousness, just as plant identity consists in continuity of organization of matter. For Locke, the substance that exhibits the consciousness at a time is probably a soul or a purely mental, immaterial substance. But Locke does think that it's conceivable that the substance that exhibits consciousness be material, or a body. He's agnostic on that point, actually. But the key point for the account of personal identity is that for Locke, the sameness of soul is neither necessary nor sufficient for the sameness of person. Similarly for Locke, the sameness of body is neither necessary nor sufficient for the sameness of person. Instead, for Locke, sameness of consciousness is both necessary and sufficient for the sameness of person. This is Locke's radically new answer to the question of personal identity. Persons are not fundamentally souls and they're not fundamentally bodies. Rather, persons are, in a way, fundamentally their consciousnesses. To illustrate this point, we need to see what Locke means by sameness of consciousness. Roughly, Locke's account of sameness of consciousness is this: a later person, B, exhibits the same consciousness as an earlier person, A, if and only if the later person can remember the earlier person's thoughts and actions. More slowly, there are two claims here that are relevant. The first claim is this (this is the claim of sufficiency): if B, the later person, can remember A's thoughts and actions, then A is the same person as B. That's the claim of sufficiency. Now here's the claim of necessity: if A is identical to B, then B can remember A's thoughts and actions. In other words, if B doesn't remember A's thoughts and actions, then A is not identical to B. So on this view, sameness of consciousness consists in the ability to have memory connections between the later person, B, and the earlier person, A. Locke exhibits this kind of view with a number of examples. Let me give one of my own. If the consciousness of Barack Obama should start informing my body or my soul, such that in my body or soul there are somehow now the memories of all the things that Obama has done, if this body starts talking like Barack Obama, starts getting an incredible urge to veto legislation, then that would be a case in which the conscious of Barack Obama has come to inform this body or this soul, my body or my soul. If that's the case, that would mean, according to Locke, that the person Obama now inhabits my body. At the same time, let's say that, fortunately or unfortunately for Obama's body, my consciousness begins to inform Barack Obama's body or soul, such that in Obama's body or soul, somehow, are the memories of my life, of all the things that I have done. My consciousness, or memories, have migrated, it seems, from my body to Obama's body or soul. So that's a case in which Obama is, in some sense - the person Obama is in some sense now in my body, and the person, Michael Della Rocca, that person, MDR, is now in Obama's body. We've switched bodies in a way. On Locke's account, personal identity goes where the consciousness or memory goes, regardless of what soul or body is in question. That's what makes possible this person switching bodies, or person switching souls. Persons go where their consciousness goes. In the same way, as you saw with the plants, the plants Rhoda and Phyllis can, as it were, switch bodies or masses of matter. There can be body switching there. Similarly, just as plant identity goes with sameness of organization and not sameness of material substance, so, too, personal identity goes with sameness of consciousness and not sameness of substance. This account, whereby sameness of consciousness or memory is both necessary and sufficient for sameness of persons, is actually quite plausible. I'm sure you've seen movies where there have been body switching, where persons have switched bodies. Freaky Friday was an example of such a movie. There's a kind of plausibility there. If some body begins exhibiting my memories and my thoughts and my intentions, et cetera, that's where I am. I go where my consciousness goes. That's Locke's account of personal identity in terms of consciousness. Subtitles by the Amara.org community