If you're seeing this message, it means we're having trouble loading external resources on our website.

If you're behind a web filter, please make sure that the domains *.kastatic.org and *.kasandbox.org are unblocked.

Main content

Metaphysics: Ship of Theseus

Jenn introduces us to a puzzle that has bedeviled philosophy since the ancient Greeks: the Ship of Theseus. She tells the Ship of Theseus story, and draws out the more general question behind it: what does it take for an object to persist over time? She then breaks this ancient problem down with modern clarity and rigor.

Speaker: Dr. Jennifer Wang, Lecturer, Stanford University.
Created by Gaurav Vazirani.

Want to join the conversation?

  • cacteye purple style avatar for user Haris Eldon
    I would argue that the example is contrived as soon as you have to introduce non-degenerative wood. If you substitute humans as the changing entity, are we the same after 80 years of changing cells?
    (63 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • hopper cool style avatar for user ☣Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ☢ Ŧeaçheя  Simρsoɳ ☢Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ☣
      In fact many even most of our cells would have been replaced over that period of time, further the very molecules we are made of would have been nearly completely replaced as well, so yes the same question applies to us as well, indeed are we the same person after being mostly replaced? Further it is likely that our thoughts, ideas, beliefs, reactions, and even emotions would be significantly different from an earlier version of ourselves making us nearly completely replaced, not just physically, but emotionally, and psychologically as well. I would say no, by the most rigid definition, that indeed it is not the same boat, same ax, same you, or same anything else, as our entire universe is constantly being remade and that indeed everything is in a constant state of change that isn't the same from one moment to the next, and that each thing is a new version of itself from moment to moment, but that for practical purposes my car is still my car the next morning though it may have rusted a little over night. Hope this helps, T.S.
      (69 votes)
  • ohnoes default style avatar for user Jacob
    If I donate a kidney to my friend Maggie, is she still Maggie? If so, at what point does the identity of a person change? Or does one's identity reside in a key portion of their self such as their brain? In that case is, was Frankenstein's monster just the reincarnation of the specific person whose brain was used (Abby Normal)? Or is it something less tangible that defines us, like a soul?
    (32 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • leaf blue style avatar for user (●̮̮̃•̃) NADO ☯
      Since people are social beings I would think that to which social circle a person belongs to makes them what they are.

      I don't think parts of people matter between people because different animals have similar parts as well. So if I received a bone part from a lion I will not gradually start to become a lion since my social group will be in tact.

      I think a good example would be a feral child.
      (17 votes)
  • hopper cool style avatar for user ☣Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ☢ Ŧeaçheя  Simρsoɳ ☢Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ☣
    Is the "Ship of Theseus" the same problem as in the movie "John dies in the end" based on the book by the same name by David Wong? Here is a link to the clip where he asks the question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQC7XC79w4
    "Solving the following riddle will reveal the awful secret behind the universe, assuming you do not go utterly mad in the attempt. If you already happen to know the awful secret behind the universe, feel free to skip ahead."
    Here is a link to the quote from John Dies at the End by David Wong. http://famous1stwords.tumblr.com/post/15315535337/solving-the-following-riddle-will-reveal-the-awful and is it the same philosophical delimma with all of it's parts replaced? Thanks, T.S.
    (16 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • mr pants teal style avatar for user mblair73
      Cool riddle. I would say no, it is not the same ax. If you take your house apart slowly, completely replacing but changing everything, would it still be your house? Not in the sense of paying mortgage and taxes, of course, but in the sense of your home?
      (5 votes)
  • marcimus pink style avatar for user mia cataldo
    What if Theseus had replaced a plank of wood himself? If he saw a the plank and thought "I don't particularly like that piece of wood being a part of my ship..." and put a new one in it's place. Would you try and tell him it was no longer his ship? If I tore a hole in the seam my shirt and sewed it back up with thread of the same color, would you tell me this was no longer my shirt? Or rather, a new shirt entirely?
    (10 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • leaf orange style avatar for user Jack Treml
      I think you're close to what I would think about this as a problem. i.e. there are numerous ways to think of a thing. When we are saying A or B is Theseus' ship, are we talking about ownership? If he has cast off the boards of his ship, then we might say that he releases ownership of them and therefore the second ship is a reconstruction of his own, but it no longer belongs to him.
      Or, should we give the ship a name? Perhaps, 'Verity'. If we disassemble 'Verity' board by board and create a new one as we replace the boards on the original, which is the true 'Verity'? What made 'Verity' be 'Verity' in the first place? Ownership again? Or its adventures? Perhaps 'Verity' is not a ship, but an idea.
      (5 votes)
  • leaf green style avatar for user Gregory Greif
    I think another solution to this problem is to claim that the identity of an object is merely a definition and lacks any real significance. In this case, the problem is reduced to one of semantics in the same way that "this sentence is false" is a paradox. The solution then lies in how we define The Ship of Theseus. Is this a plausible way to address this problem or is it somehow invalid?
    (10 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • starky ultimate style avatar for user Tim Norris
      This is similar to my intuition on the subject. I also feel the problem lies in the word identity. But I'm uncertain that your next proposed step of unpacking our definition of The Ship of Theseus is necessary.

      We have given the word identity a definition and particular parameters. We assume that the word itself and it's definition are true. We proceed to view this as a worthy problem based on that assumption. What if the problem has no answer because the question is nonsensical? Is the word "identity" a human construct used to help us create stories about the universe? Does an identity have the same properties as a mathematical digit, with which we can construct a rational problem? Maybe the purpose of this problem is purely to draw our attention to defects in our initial definitions and limitations in our human perceptions.

      I'm uncertain that my intuition here is even a valid argument, but it is the only conclusion I could draw with my current understanding of philosophy.
      (2 votes)
  • mr pants teal style avatar for user mblair73
    If you take something apart, then put it back together identically, it is obviously still that thing! In what way could this possibly be argued? I don't mean this as saying this is the only correct assumption, I just honestly would like to know how this can be argued.
    (2 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • purple pi purple style avatar for user Residuum
      You could say it is impossible to return it to it's original state. You could never put it back together perfectly down to a microscopic level of precision. Close but never exact. Maybe you pulled a nail too hard and damaged a piece of wood. Now it's not the same anymore. Theoretically at least. That's my take on it. Philosophy gets tricky, try to think about it from different viewpoints. Granted, You might not agree with those viewpoints, but at least you get a better understanding of where they are coming from. There's not usually a right or wrong answer, just different ideas.
      (11 votes)
  • hopper jumping style avatar for user Gabriel
    what exactly are the disadvantages of accepting solution 5 (wormlike ship)?
    (4 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • blobby green style avatar for user Fabien Ninoles
      Solution 5 transform the traditional vision of identity by making one that it dependant on time. For example, you can get to the point that everything share the same original identity (year 0), since we are all the creation of something in the universe.

      We could say that the problem of solution 5 is that it doesn't address how the identity is formed and so, you could say that, instead of the Ship of Theseus, we have the "1000 planks of the Carpenter", or "The Trees of the Forest", or even, the "Seed of the Universe".
      (3 votes)
  • leaf green style avatar for user Darren McStravick
    We need the wireless philosophy critical thinking course back. I remember there being a course where you could do exercises on necessary and sufficient conditions but all links to it now lead to an error page. Also, we need a course dedicated to predicate calculus/first-order logic!!
    (4 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
  • aqualine ultimate style avatar for user r41d3n7
    Isn't the riddle just based on the ambiguity of the words used to describe the ship? Because what each person mean's by Theseus' ship is different?
    (3 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user
    • leaf green style avatar for user Hudjefa
      Yes, you're right. ''The ship of Theseus'' could mean the original material or it could mean the functional material. Ambiguity, yes. The problem is we don't have a good reason to reject either of the two interpretations.
      (2 votes)
  • I'm sure there are other potential solutions as well, no? I'm obviously no philosophy expert, but what about the idea that identity is arbitrary and that we tend to see ourselves as each a constant identity throughout life because it is a useful way of perception (helps with chasing animals for food, helps people relate to each other, helps find answers to questions, etc.)?
    (2 votes)
    Default Khan Academy avatar avatar for user

Video transcript

(intro music) I'm Jennifer Wang. I'm a professor of philosophy at the University of Georgia. Today, I'm going to talk about the Ship of Theseus puzzle. This puzzle was recorded by Plutarch, an Ancient Greek historian, though it's come up in many different forms over the ages. It goes like this. Theseus was this great mythical hero of Athens, who sailed off to Crete and slew the Minotaur, a creature with the head of a bull and the body of a man. After Theseus came back, his ship was left in the Athenian harbor as a memorial. Over centuries, the planks of the ship decayed and were gradually replaced. Now, it doesn't really matter that the planks decayed, or that the ship still had masts and sails and other ship stuff too. We can simplify the story. Let's pretend that the Ship of Theseus is a very simple ship, made of one thousand planks and nothing more. Let's also say that the planks are made of invincible wood, super wood, so that they never decay. In what I'll call "scenario one", the Ship of Theseus has its one thousand planks replaced very slowly, over the course of one thousand years. That's one plank a year. So here's the puzzle. Surely a ship can survive the replacement of one of its planks. In year one, when the first plank is replaced, it's still the Ship of Theseus. In year two, when the second plank is replaced, it's still the Ship of Theseus, and so on, through year one thousand. But the ship at year zero, the original Ship of Theseus, doesn't share any of the same parts with the ship at year one thousand, which we can call "A." So how can A be the real Ship of Theseus? Thomas Hobbes, a seventeenth- century English philosopher, added a twist to the story. In scenario two, a ship repairman keeps all of the old planks of the Ship of Theseus and uses them to build an exact replica of the original ship, with all of the planks in the same arrangement. So in this scenario, at year one thousand, there are two exactly similar ships: the one whose planks were gradually replaced, which we called "A" in scenario one, and the one built from the old planks, which we can call "B." Now, A has the same claim to being the real Ship of Theseus as it did in scenario one. But B also has a good claim to being the real Ship of Theseus. After all, it's made of the same parts as the original Ship of Theseus, in the same arrangement. But they can't both be the Ship of Theseus. Let's look more carefully at the underlying assumptions that generate the puzzle. One assumption is that ordinary objects survive gradual change. This is very plausible. You can't destroy a coat just by removing one of its buttons. Maybe you then ruin the aesthetic of the coat, but that's not what's at issue here. It's still the same coat. It's just changed a bit. The principle that ordinary objects survive gradual change motivates the conclusion that A is the real Ship of Theseus. Another assumption is that an object goes where its parts go, so to speak, at least in cases where the parts are in the same arrangements. Let's modify our scenario so that the planks of the ship are gradually removed, but aren't replaced with new planks. Again, the old planks are used to build an exact replica of the ship so that, at the end of the new scenario, there's only one ship, the ship we called "B." Call this modified scenario "scenario three." The principle that an object goes where its parts go motivates the conclusion that B is the real Ship of Theseus in scenario three. But it motivates this conclusion in scenario two as well, where there are two ships at the end. It doesn't look like both principles can stay. Which should go? Let's go through some possible solutions to the puzzle of the Ship of Theseus, some of which involve rejecting one principle or the other. They all come with disadvantages. Solution one is to deny the parts principle. This solution involves saying that in scenario three, the ship at the end is not the Ship of Theseus, even though it has all the same parts arranged in all the same ways. Solution two involves denying the change principle: ordinary objects survive some gradual change but not all. That is, sometime between the year zero and the year one thousand, removing a plank destroys the Ship of Theseus. The problem is that this solution seems arbitrary. Why would removing, say, plank number 543 destroy the Ship of Theseus, but not number 542? And at that moment, does the ship being built out of the old planks in scenario two suddenly become the Ship of Theseus? On solution three, the plank which destroys the Ship of Theseus is not some middling plank. Rather, as soon as plank number one is removed, the ship is destroyed. This solution involves denying the change principle as well, but it offers a stronger thesis in its place: ordinary objects never survive any change. This view was advocated by Roderick Chisholm, a twentieth-century American philosopher, who was inspired by Bishop Joseph Butler, an eighteenth-century English theologian and philosopher. Butler's thesis was that ordinary objects like ships persist only in a loose and popular sense. Whether A or B is regarded as the Ship of Theseus ends up being something of a practical matter. According to Butler's thesis, no ship really ever survives any change. However, not only is this view implausible, it implies that there are one thousand ships where we thought there was only one, as the destruction of each ship is followed by the creation of a new one. On solution four, neither the change principle nor the parts principle needs to be rejected. Rather the solution here is to say that A and B are each the Ship of Theseus. This involves rejecting the following principle, called the "transitivity of identity": if X is identical to Y, and Y is identical to Z, then X is identical to Z. On solution four, A is identical to the Ship of Theseus, and the Ship of Theseus is identical to B, but A is not identical to B. According to solution five, the Worm Theory solution, we need to change the way we're thinking about ordinary objects. Here's the idea. I introduce scenario two like this: there is a ship at year zero and two ships at year one thousand, and the challenge is to figure out which of the two ships at year one thousand is identical to the ship at year zero. The implicit assumption that worm theory rejects is that ordinary objects like ships are three dimensional objects, where the three dimensions are spatial dimensions. According to worm theory, ordinary objects really have four dimensions: three spatial and one temporal. So there are no ships wholly present at year zero or at year one thousand. Rather, there is one worm-like ship which has a part at year zero at one end, and has A as a part at the other end. And there is another worm-like ship which has a part at year zero at one end, and B as a part at the other. The two worm-like entities have overlapping parts at year zero. This solution doesn't require rejecting transitivity, the parts principle, or the change principle. After all, it's no longer clear what claim we're making when we assert "A is identical to the Ship of Theseus" or "the Ship of Theseus is identical to B." A and B are not identical to each other, but nor are either of them identical to the Ship of Theseus. They both have the object at year zero as a part. That is all. As you can see, accepting any of these five solutions comes with disadvantages, but to resolve the puzzle, it looks like we have to accept some disadvantage or other. Subtitles by the Amara.org community