The Constitution and democracy

I'm here with historian Joe Ellis I'm Walter Isaacson of the Aspen Institute we've been talking about the Constitution and let me ask you professor were they trying to create a democracy and what did they feel about the word democracy certainly when we talk about the American form of government we call it a democracy they didn't call it that they called it a republic and they were not Democrats in the full sense of the term that you will see in the 19th century with Andrew Jackson the kind of world that Tocqueville will see it's a pre democratic world what do I mean by that that they want to create a form of government that is built on a popular Democratic foundation but they want that the structure of the infrastructure of the government to be increasingly separated from popular opinion from the swoony swings in demagogic moments and so this called filtration okay will elect members of the House but the Senate will be elected by state governments and this is Madison's concept which by filtration you mean that the will of the people is filtered through a few layers so it you know it gets sort of moderated yeah even Jefferson said the initial secretion of the people at large is always corrupt now by the way we're talking about they but there are a whole lot of different people there and certainly I've written about Ben Franklin he quite loved the notion of a popular democracy he believed that we the people he wanted a single house legislate anyone be directly elected by the people and one of the government officials to have no salary to right he thought somehow he was he realized he was wrong about that because he thought that that would make it more sort of volunteer work but then he realized would only be the elite you would get to serve so he changed but there are other people at the convention or on the other extreme from Benjamin Franklin and a really resistant to the notion of democracy they worried about the unfiltered will of the people Hamilton is probably the extreme example he gave one six hour speech in early June of 1787 that will be like a tin can tied to his tail for the rest of his life because in it he comes out in favor of elected monarchy for life senators serve for life right and he speaks of the British Empire's the role model for what we are tracted to even one of his biographers I think calls it that speech was the word to use deft right he said brilliant Ron chernow him said brilliant courageous and completely dead well you know so let's all remember that this wasn't just one group of founders but there was some competition and there was some disagreement among the founders even in the question of maybe we should have president for life almost like a monarchy right yeah I mean the will talk about the moon of the executive branch in another time I think but the craziest thing they create and nobody in the rest of what can understand it even now is the Electoral College but that's because they're kind of afraid of pure democracy and they think that would turned out to be a wacky construct that was so saddled with will help prevent a purely direct election of the president correct there are some people that were in favor of a direct election of the president but the opposition said things like well how will that happen I mean they you know they don't they don't know that there's not political parties yet there's not political conventions yet there's no nominating process yet and everybody just votes wherever they want to and that's that's not going to work if it's if it's just a popular vote in fact I think most of the people at the convention thought that most of the time the president would end up being elected by the House of Representatives because nobody would get a majority but you know they put a lot of what we now call checks and balances that was in some ways supposed to temper the unfiltered will of the people right there's checks and balances in terms of ways in which let's say the Senate has power shares power with the president in terms of treaty approval and approval of government appointments yes it's like a device that makes sure that it keeps balancing itself and sort of an Enlightenment thing it is Newtonian mechanics it you know then I wonder if we could design it under Einsteinian principles we know I think it sometimes feels like it was done by quantum theory but it was actually then done by Newton's theories which Jefferson Franklin certainly hi Madison they all read the Enlightenment writers they did and while I think the institutional checks-and-balances is well known and correctly described as such there are kind of personality checks and balances here you've got Hamilton Anna Madison Anna Franklin who are really different temperaments let's say governor Morris who's you know a real rake RA ke he by the way his peg leg the Statue of Washington it sits in front of the Virginia Capitol which is designed by who'd own the torso is governor Morris well really well you know I always think of Washington as made of marble on a pedestal and there's a wonderful scene of the convention in some ways it gives with democracy because there is this revered Washington and I think it's your friend Hamilton bets grooving Omar said he won't slap Washington on the back and say how are you doing today general because he's such an austere character and you don't get inside Washington space and you're absolutely right this is apocryphal I've noticed but it's too good a story not to talk of it and it was actually Hamilton that went up I know maybe he was governor Morrison and he put his arm around Washington said how you do in general and Washington steer stared at him and lifted his arm off of his shoulder and that was the last time anybody well I'm sorry written about which is that governor Morris is not for the price of a thousand dinners I ever do that again so we are talking about people who are balancing the role of these extraordinary people like Washington who some saw as a potential monarch with a more casual people's life democracy yes and people who I mean for example Hamilton thought economically Madison thought politically for Hamilton an aggregation aggregates are good consolidation is good that's what capitalism is whether economic motivations of these founders as Todd beard walks about or is that oversimplifying it I think even beard himself if he brought back would say I overstated the case nevertheless the sort of quasi Marxist class driven analysis has always had a certain audience these were not the wealthiest men in America other one of them was there and I would say the distinguishing characteristic was less their wealth than their education that said they in some cases we're going to be the beneficiaries they own public securities they owned land the value which would go up if the federal government came into existence and flourished that's true surprisingly a lot Amanda broke yes but also if you look at Madison Hamilton all the people writing the constitution governor Morris they have a motivation that seems a little bit more elevated absolutely they think that this is the only way for the full potential for the American Revolution to be realized and that if you don't do it this thing called the Artic articles is going to end up in anarchy and predator European nations that couldn't come over and and you know France is going to try to get its empire back Britain's already still got troops up there on the northwest frontier so things are going to fall apart dissolve anarchy was the word Washington used unless we do this but if we do this we establish the foundation for an empire in North America that has got unbelievable natural resources and a country that stays together for two centuries as a shining light a wood or republican bait we'll talk about that next