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## Algebra 1

### Course: Algebra 1 > Unit 15

Lesson 2: Sums and products of rational and irrational numbers- Proof: sum & product of two rationals is rational
- Proof: product of rational & irrational is irrational
- Proof: sum of rational & irrational is irrational
- Sums and products of irrational numbers
- Worked example: rational vs. irrational expressions
- Worked example: rational vs. irrational expressions (unknowns)
- Rational vs. irrational expressions

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# Worked example: rational vs. irrational expressions (unknowns)

CCSS.Math:

Sal determines whether expressions with unknown rational/irrational numbers are rational or irrational.

## Want to join the conversation?

- A question for the first problem, at0:00

At1:25, Sal says that the answer has to be rational, but this proves that it can be either rational OR irrational.

The numbers 5678 and 385 are rational.

So there's a and b, so a = ( m = 5678 and n = 2 )

b = ( p = 385 and q = 5)

5678 / 385 = 14.748051948051948 (which is Irrational isn't it?)

So the answer can be either Rational or Irrational, and not just rational right?(8 votes)- Why do you think that the decimal is irrational? First, it is shown as a ratio of two integers which is rational by definition. Second, it starts repeating at the hundredths digit, and all repeating numbers are rational. I do not understand what you are trying to argue.(11 votes)

- if a and b are two rational numbers, e.g a= 22 and b= 7, then a/b = 22/7 which is pi, therefore will be an irrational number. so the answer @1:30should be irrational or rational. someone please explain!(3 votes)
- The important fact that you are missing is that 22/7 does
**not**equal Pi. It is just an approximation for Pi. 22/7 = 3.142857.. where the 142857 repeats over and over again.

Pi is a non-ending and non-repeating decimal. Pi can not be written as the ratio of 2 integers.

22/7 is rational

Pi is irrational

Hope this helps.(9 votes)

- pie can be expressed in p/q where q doesnot equals to zero.Therefore it satisfies all conditions to be rational ,then why is it irrational?(2 votes)
- This is the same as your last question. The answer doesn't change. A rational number must be able to be written as the ratio of 2
**integers**. Pi can**not**be written as the ratio of 2**integers**.(5 votes)

- Where can I get more practice of this?(3 votes)
- Repeat the exercises(practices) in the website after you've already completed them.(2 votes)

- Can the result of an irrational number plus or minus an irrational number be a rational number?(2 votes)
- Only if the two irrational numbers are the same, so √2 - √2 = 0.(2 votes)

- In what case can a number be both rational and irrational?(1 vote)
- There is no such number. All real numbers are either rational OR irrational. They can't be both.(4 votes)

- Ok, according to the question at4:25, what if we assume a=√4?

Then the problem would be: -25+√4 and √4 = 2.

Therefore it would be -25+2 i.e. -23. This answer is a rational.

So...shouldn't be the answer be "It can either be Rational or Irrational"??(1 vote)- Ah, but √4 is rational, so it wouldn't match the problem. It's asking for -24+a where 'a' is some irrational number. We would have to assume 'a' is irrational, so that takes out all the square root of perfect squares.(3 votes)

- pie=c/d.This seems to contradict the fact that pie is iirational.how will you resolve this contradiction?

HELP!(0 votes)- To be a rational number, the number must be able to be written as the ratio of 2
**integers**.

You are assuming that circumference and diameter are both integers. They aren't. The circumference is irrational because it is defined using Pi: C = Pi*D(5 votes)

- Couldn't I just pretend the irrational was like the negative rule? The only difference being that anything that has to do with a single irrational is an irrational?(1 vote)
- Not quite, a PI/(2*PI) = 1/2 which is rational. So even tough there are irrationals involved it can still be rational.(3 votes)

- @ 36 seconds Do M and N have special meaning? Or are they simply representing any 2 integers?(2 votes)
- Just representing integers, though you will see m and n as well as p and q used a fair bit, especially when it is a pair of numbers.(1 vote)

## Video transcript

- We're to let a and
b be rational numbers, and let b be non-zero, they
have to say let b be non-zero because we're about to divide by b. Is a over b rational or irrational? Well let's think about it,
they're both rational numbers so that means that a, since
it's rational, can be expressed as the ratio of two integers,
so I can write a is equal to m over n, and same thing about
b, I could write b as being equal to p over q, where where m, n, p, and q are integers, are integers, by definition of what a rational number is, they're
telling us these numbers are rational so I can express
them as these types of ratios. So what is a over b going to be? a over b is going to be m over n over p over q which is equal to m over n,
if I divide by a fraction, it's the same thing as
multiplying by the reciprocal. q over p, let me write that a little bit, q over p which is equal to mq over np. Well mq is going to be an
integer, if the product of two integers is going to be
an integer, and np is going to be another integer, the
product of two integers is an integer, so I've just shown that a over b can be expressed as the ratio of
two integers, so a over b is for sure, in fact I've just
proven it to you, a over b is for sure going to be rational. Let's do a few more of
these, this is interesting. All right, so now we're saying let a and b be irrational numbers. Is a over b, let a and
b be irrational numbers. Is a over b rational or irrational? And, like always, pause
the video and try to think this through, and you
might want do some examples of some irrational numbers
and see if you can get, when you divide them, you can get rational or irrational numbers. Well, let's just imagine
a world where, let's say, that a is equal to, I dunno, two square roots of two, and b is equal to the square root of two. Well, in that world, a
over b, a over b would be two square roots of two
over the square root of two which would be two, which is
very much a rational number, I can express that as a ratio
of integers, I can write that as two over one, there's actually
an infinite number of ways I can express that as a
ratio of two integers. So, in this case, I was able
to get a over b to be rational, based on a and b being irrational. But, what if, what if instead of, what if a was equal to the square root of two and b is equal to the square root of, let's say, b is equal
to the square root of seven. Well, then a over b would
be equal to the square root of two over the square root
of seven, which is still going to be irrational, I
mean another way to think about it, and I'm not proving
it here, but you could think about it, this is
going to be the square root of two sevens, so we
have something that's not a perfect square under the
radical, so we're going to end up with an irrational number. So, we can show one example where a over b is rational and we showed one example where it is irrational,
so it can be either way. Let's do a few more of these. All right, let a be a
non-zero rational number. Is a times the square root of
eight rational or irrational? Well, the key here is, if you
multiply an irrational number and why is this an irrational number? It has a perfect square
in it, but it's not a perfect square in and of itself. The square root of eight is,
the square root of eight is equal to the square
root of four times two, which is equal to the
square root of four times the square root of two, which is equal to two square roots of two. And, this is kind of
getting to the punchline of this problem, but if I
multiply a rational times an irrational, I am going
to get an irrational. So the square root of
eight is an irrational, and if I multiply that
times a rational number, I'm still going to get
an irrational number. So this is going to be,
for sure, irrational. Let's do one more of these. So we're to let a be an irrational number. Is negative 24 plus a
rational or irrational? And I won't give a formal
proof here, but to give you more of an intuitive feel,
it's nice to just try out some numbers, and I encourage
you to pause the video and try to think through it yourself. Let's just imagine some values,
imagine if a is irrational, a is irrational, so what
if a was equal to negative pi, which is approximately
equal to negative three point one four one five nine and it keeps going on and on forever, never repeating. Well, then we would have negative 24 plus a would be equal to negative 24 minus pi, which would be approximately negative 27 point one for one five
nine, the decimal expansion, everything to the right of
the decimal, is going to be the exact same thing as pi. So this looks like, at least
for this example, is going to be irrational, and let's
see, if a was square root of two negative 24 plus the square root of two, well, once again, I'm
not doing a proof here, but intuitively, this is
going to be a decimal, it's going to have a decimal expansion that's going to go on
forever and never repeat, and so this would just
change what's to the left of the decimal, but not
really change what's, well it would change what's
to the right of the decimal because this is negative,
but it's still going to go on forever and never repeat,
and if, in fact, this was if this was this way, then
to the right of the decimal, you would have the same thing
as the square root of two to the left of the decimal,
you would just have a different value, you
would have negative 25 point whatever whatever whatever,
and so this is, when you add a rational number to an
irrational number, we've proven in other videos, a
rational plus an irrational is going to be irrational, irrational. If you want that proof,
we have other videos within this tutorial.