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Course: World history > Unit 2
Lesson 16: Women and familiesWATCH: Comparative roles of women in Rome and Han China
The video explores the roles of women in ancient Rome and Han China. It highlights Hortensia's bold speech against taxation in Rome and Ban Zhao's writings on women's modesty in China. The discussion reveals the differences in women's status and freedoms in these societies.
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Ban Zhao was China's most famous female scholar it's quite fascinating that her life included Mathematics,Poetry etc. and while we know that in the video she wrote a book lessons for Woman that in some ways contradict who she was. Did Ban Zhao contribute to mathematics or astronomy in any way?
Also What are some of Ban Zhao's poetry that was written?(20 votes)
I wonder if, being a woman in a non-traditional role, maybe Ban Zhao felt heavy pressures to support traditional Confucian views of women, and maybe this "Lessons for Women" is a product of that? She seems to have supported women in other ways: by recording the genealogies of the mother of the emperor, which wasn't usually recorded (when she finished her brother's "Book of Han" history, to which she also added a treatise on astronomy), and by rearranging and enlarging "The Biographies of Eminent Women" by Liu Xiang. She also taught royalty and was given an official court position, called a Palace Lady, which was similar to Lady-in-Waiting in European kingdoms. I read that Palace Ladies were required to be well educated, so maybe being a scholarly woman is not as counter-cultural for her as it seems to us on the surface? Maybe she saw her intelligence and her humility as not mutually exclusive, but rather used both together to serve others? Not all females in patriarchal societies see themselves as oppressed, even if we view them that way as we look back on history.
Some of Ban Zhao's works/accomplishments are mentioned in her Wikipedia article
< https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Zhao#Work >. Maybe the references at the end of it could lead you to more information and possibly some of her writings? (I tried the External Link at the end of the wiki after posting this and it didn't work, but you might find what you're looking for in the books listed or in other history books or websites. Good luck, and please share some of what you find with the rest of us!)(18 votes)
Who were Hortensia and Ban Zhao writing these letters to?(7 votes)
Ban Zhao wrote and published a book that was geared toward women with lessons about how they should behave. Hortensia made her speech to the triumvirs, who were government administrators.(15 votes)
What is known about levels of literacy in women in Rome around the time of Hortensia and in Han China around the time of Ban Zhao?(7 votes)
RE: China.
The moral code for women, known as the ‘Three Obediences and Four
Virtues’, was traditionally viewed as the highest ideal expected of all women.
It had also become the quintessence of a young woman’s upbringing. The
three obediences, as noted earlier, required that women be obedient to their
fathers before marriage, to their husbands when married and to their sons
when their husbands die. “Moral discipline, proper speech manner, modest
appearance and diligence”, on the other hand, constituted the ‘four
virtues’[13] which were later renamed as the ‘four disciplines’ during the
Later Han Dynasty.[14] These moral fetters imposed on women became the
WOMEN’S EDUCATION IN CHINA
347
basic groundwork in the training of women after marriage. We shall discuss
this later on.
To reiterate, Chinese society, for almost 3000 years, had been founded
on the belief that heaven is ‘Qian’ and the earth is ‘Kun’. The male gender is
represented by Qian (meaning bright or positive) and the female gender by
Kun (meaning dark or negative). Men, one is told, should be assertive and
women yielding, the former active and the latter passive.[15] This had also
become the yardstick by which the success of a woman’s education was
crudely and arbitrarily measured. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029500200092
RE: Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Rome#Childhood_and_education(4 votes)
So, as I understand there were generally two major factors limiting women: 1)Their physical weakness; 2) Religion.
In Rome and in Chana women were "oppressed" because of their weakness; in Muslim countries it was often the case of not fully comprehending religion and limiting women of every right.
Was there any country/empire in the history that realized that women's weakness is only physical? At least, as it was in Sparta where women made a major part of wealthy citizens (well, mainly because the male were taken for army but anyway) and were allowed to move, own properties, land, people(slaves), be in public without a male companion, drink wine and etc...(5 votes)- I would rethink those limiting factors to:
1)Child bearing/rearing.
This is a job only a woman could do for the first year at least and it made them unavailable for conscription to the army and employment in other trades. They did however carry the bulk of manual labor in agricultural industries,especially during war-times. Women for the most part are not physically weaker then men, only smaller with less muscle mass. This can be an advantage in armed combat where quickness and flexibility often trump brute force. Think of the Amazons or Lady Fu Hao or the woman fighters of the Trojan war and even Cynane, half-sister to Alexander the Great. She accompanied her father on a military campaign and killed an Illyrian leader in hand-to-hand combat, later defeating the Illyrian army. I think women have proved time and time again their physical prowess on the battle field, whether as leaders or troops and still continue to do so today.
2)Social norms.
Yes women were oppressed. The oppression of women is based in the historical status of women as property, and their unequal role in the institution of family. These are values upheld by many religions.
As to your question on countries or empires with social equality.
Egypt: During some dynasties women and men had the same rights in regard to business, education and in the event of divorce, children would go to the wife and land could be passed down on the female line.
Viking and Celts: They had fairly progressive laws pertaining to woman's rights and career options. There are some very disdainful commentaries by Roman writers about the assertive character of Germanic and Celtic women. And of course it was Boudicca who nearly had the Romans out of Britain.
The Wiyot of Northwest California: They had few gender specific roles.
The Etruscans: Woman could even participate in politics (though there is a definite class element here). The Romans hated them.
There are also many African and Mayan artifacts that call into question pre-concieved ideas of female subordination.
Sorry for the late answer! Hope this was interesting for you, it certainly is to me!:)(5 votes)
regardless of any form of discrimination, should one be forced to pay for anything in which one cannot take part in or in any way be benefited by? or should one be forced to pay for that in question that one disagrees with or does not wish to take part in?(3 votes)- So, taxpayers who do not want their governments to pay for military weapons should keep that part of what they are taxed? How about taxpayers who do not use roads, or whose children have already finished school, or who have no children of their own?
In places like Egypt, where clergy (both Muslim and Christian) are paid by the government, should non-believers be exempt from that portion of the tax burden?(1 vote)
- i would like to thank david alexander to answer my questions. ignore the question mark. i have to put in question mark or it wont submit?(0 votes)
Video transcript
- [Sal] I'm here with Eman El-Sheikh, Khan Academy's World History Fellow. The question I have, Eman, is, history often focuses on men, but clearly, women were
playing a significant role, but how much can we know about
women, say, 2,000 years ago? - [Eman] So, when we talk about the lives of women in the Classical Period, sometimes we're tempted to
compare it to the modern day, and that can cause some problems because that's not
really a fair comparison. So it's more useful to
see how different women living in different societies in the same time period
compare to one another. That can make their
differences a lot more salient and give us a better idea. Of course, it's hard to know the history of women back then in general. We don't necessarily have
all the best sources. But we can try to piece
together some understanding of what their daily lives were like. - [Sal] We have two
points of reference here; one from Rome as it transitions
from republic to empire; and another from Han China. Let's look at the reference from Rome. Just for a little bit of context, this speech that we're gonna talk about, this occurs in 42 BCE. People might remember
that in 44 BCE you have Julius Caesar getting
assassinated on the Ides of March, and it throws the Roman
Empire into a civil war. And so, this speech is
given during that civil war. Because civil wars,
they're not just bloody, they're also expensive,
and to fund that civil war the triumvirs decide to tax
the 1400 wealthiest women. Hortensia, who gives this speech, is one of those wealthy women. - [Eman] Hortensia says:
"Why should we pay taxes "when we do not share
in the offices, honors, "military commands, nor,
in short, the government, "for which you fight between yourselves "with such harmful results? "You say 'because it is wartime.' "When has there not been war? "and when have women paid taxes? "By nature of their sex women are absolved "from paying taxes among all mankind. "Our mothers did once
rise superior to their sex "and made contributions
when you faced the loss "of the empire and the city itself "through the conflict
with the Carthaginians. "But they funded their
contributions voluntarily "from their jewelry not
from their landed property, "their fields, their
dowries, or their houses, "without which it is impossible
for free women to live... "Let war with the Celts or Parthians come, "we will not be inferior to our mothers "when it is a question of common safety. "But for civil wars,
may we never contribute "nor aid you against each other. "We did not pay taxes
to Caesar or to Pompey, "nor did Marius ask us for contributions, "nor Cinna, nor Sulla, "even though he was a
tyrant over this country. "And you say that you are
reestablishing the Republic!" - [Sal] Wow, that was quite powerful. And there's a lot of richness here. What's your takeaway? - [Eman] So, it's interesting
that she is saying that by nature of their sex women
are absolved from paying taxes. It might seem like she's
saying that women are weaker; but she's sort of speaking
back to this requirement that they should use their property. Because they're normally using
jewelry and they're normally using things that they
don't necessarily need in order to fight off foreigners. Here she's really taking issue with having to use her livelihood
to support a civil war, and she's sort of taking
them to task on this, that they're worse than
tyrants for asking this of her. - [Sal] The other thing
that jumps out of this, it comes outta the first few statements, "Why should we pay taxes
when we do not share "in the offices, honors,
military commands, "nor, in short, the government." She's making very clear, women
don't get to participate. Why should we fund this war? I also like this part. "You say 'because it is wartime.' "When has there not been war?" That's a really good point, because Rome, especially at that point,
was continuously conquering other peoples, continuously at war, sometimes a civil war,
sometimes an external war. - [Eman] Sure, and I
think it's interesting how she's pointing to that disparity between the things that men have
and women don't have. And she's just trying to say:
"Well, if that's how it's "going to be, then we should
also be exempt from taxation." I think that's an interesting
way to voice concerns. While this might seem very primitive to our modern sensibilities, it's really powerful that a woman is taking these government
officials to task and being so outspoken and quite scathing in
the way she does this. - [Sal] I also like the
second part right over here, where she is citing that our
mothers once also stepped up. She's referring to, during
the Second Punic War and Hannibal was running
amuck on the Italian Peninsula and even threatening Rome
itself, that the women of Rome, especially the wealthy women of Rome, did step up and pay taxes. - [Eman] So, based on this,
Sal, what do you think we can learn about Roman women and
their lives at this time period? - [Sal] Well, as we pointed
out, even in this speech she cites some direct reference to not having equality to men. But on the other hand, she has stormed the triumvirs' tribunal. I think this is the first
time that women were, they weren't even allowed
there, they just went there, and she's sticking it to the
triumvirs pretty strongly. She's saying: "Let war with
the Celts or Parthians come, "we will not be inferior to our mothers." "We're willing to step up if
it's war with external parties. "But for civil wars,
may we never contribute "nor aid you against each other." They're saying: "Hey, if
you wanna fight yourself, "that's your problem." And she's even telling 'em: "And you say "that you are reestablishing
the Republic!" She's questioning the three most powerful people in the Roman Empire. She's questioning their very intention. So it does show, at least culturally, even if officially women
do not have a strong role, at least these elite women
do have enough comfort to be able to go to
the three most powerful in the Roman Empire and stick it to them. - [Eman] Yeah, and while this
may not seem like a big deal to us now, we have to avoid
that comparison, like I said. If we compare it to some other societies around the same time,
this is quite remarkable for a woman to enter a public institution. Again, she is an elite woman,
but let's compare it to, say, Athenian women, even
elite woman in Athens, were not likely to have any involvement in the political institutions, were a lot more likely to just
remain in the private sphere, were not likely to be as
educated as Roman women. And so, the fact that
Hortensia can actually enter into the space and be so outspoken is sort of evidence of
the fact that Roman women had a degree more freedom than other women who were their contemporaries
in other societies. - [Sal] Absolutely. Let's continue that comparison. We can go about 100, 150 years further in the future from Hortensia's speech. Let's also go to the other side of, almost the other side of the world, we'll go to eastern Asia, where we are in the Eastern Han Dynasty. So here we have some text from Ban Zhao, who was a female historian,
astronomer, mathematician, Confucian, philosopher, coauthor of the official history book of Han. It's from her Lessons for Women. - [Eman] So, Ban Zhao says: "Let a woman modestly yield to others; "let her respect others;
let her put others first. "Herself, last." "Lay the (girl) baby
at birth below the bed "to plainly indicate that
she is lowly and weak, "and should regard it as her primary duty "to humble herself before others." "A husband can marry twice, but
his wife must never remarry. "Just as Heaven cannot be disobeyed, "so the wife cannot keep
away from her husband." "Man is honored for strength; "a woman is beautiful on
account of her gentleness." - [Sal] So what's your take on that? - [Eman] So, this is very much inline with the Confucian ideal of womanhood, and that's very much about a woman being very submissive to her male
relatives, and for her to stay very modest within the power
framework of her society, and to stay pretty much
within her own household, and to cultivate a life that
is meant to create comfort for the men in her
family and her children, and not much more than that. - [Sal] Yeah, I could not
imagine anyone who read this and took it seriously as
doing a lesson for themselves and storming the triumvirs' tribunals, even if they are an elite
woman in imperial China. - [Eman] Certainly, but I think
there's an important thing to remember, and that this
kind of document shows a prescriptive approach to women's lives. And that doesn't necessarily mean that women did live this way. The fact that Ban Zhao
herself is writing this is sort of ironic
because she's a woman who is putting herself out
there and writing things and not staying in the private sphere, so that's sort of a strange
contradiction there. But also, women who had a lot of wealth were likely to become educated like her. And also, it sort of
depended on their generation. Older women were likely
to have inheritances, property, just like
their Roman counterparts, and they were more likely
to engage in trade. We can find this out by
looking at other documents, like wills and so forth. So we can sort of see a tension between the prescriptive Confucian ideals and how women actually lived. In a lot of ways, having
wealth allowed women to buy their way out of these constrictive practices and ideas about women. - [Sal] I definitely
agree with that irony. It's quite thick here, because
she's telling other women to indicate that she is lowly and weak, but Ban Zhao herself, as I
mentioned, she's a historian, astronomer, mathematician,
Confucian, philosopher, she co-wrote one of the official histories of the Han empire, she's more
prominent and has done more than the great majority
of men in her time, so she's clearly not lowly and weak. So the irony is quite thick. - [Eman] Certainly. It's interesting to look
at these things because, like you said, it gives us
a sense of the difference. There seems to be quite
a different culture at play between Rome
and China at this time. And so, making that
kinda comparison gives us a lot more information about women's lives than simply saying that
there's a single history for all women of this time period, and that's simply not the case. As we can see, there are
huge differences between the civilizations; certainly,
even within civilizations there can be huge differences. - [Sal] Yes. Both of the examples we looked at have been very elite women. We're talking about women
well within the top 1%. If you went to more average women, their situation would
have been very different. - [Eman] Certainly. So, this idea that women
are supposed to have a nice home full of family
and stay within that, only wealthy women could
really live up to that; because if you have to leave
the house to make a living, you might not be able to
create this idyllic household full of children and spend
all your time managing that. So that's an important
difference, as well. - [Sal] Thanks, Eman.
This was really valuable. - [Eman] Thanks, Sal.