[MUSIC PLAYING] SAL KHAN: This is
one that actually does speak to me in
a very powerful way. When you look at something
like an American flag, I think I kind of get it. I mean, it's such a
powerful icon or image, and it evokes so many things. And it's something that
you see so frequently, at least if you're an American. And if you're not
American, it's something that you still probably
see relatively frequently, and probably does
represent something to you. But then to have it kind
of re-imaged and re-imaged in this antiqued way. I can't fully
articulate it and I won't claim that it's somehow
challenging my philosophy in some profound way,
but I kind of get it at a base level, what's
trying to go on here. And I think that's
why this painting has gotten so much
popular attraction. I mean, it was on the cover
of one of my history books when I was in high school. There are shirts that
are made with this image. Am I not seeing the
full "there" when I'm describing it that way,
or is there even more to it? STEVEN ZUCKER: I think
you're absolutely right. And I think that
Johns would be really happy to hear what
you just said. And I think he
wanted this painting to function as something that
did raise all kinds of meanings in the person who
walked up to it. In a sense, what he's
showing us is not so much a flag as a mirror, because
it is such a potent symbol. And we all walk up
to it with a lot of personal life experience. And it can mean very
different things to very many different people. And in a sense, he's given
us a very neutral field. So let's look at
it really closely. We're not looking at a
printed American flag, and we're not looking
at a flag of cloth. And in fact, some critics at the
time asked is this a painting, or is this a flag? In other words, is
it a representation, or is it an actual flag? And of course, something that
is symbolic, like a flag, can raise that kind of issue,
which is one of the reasons that I think Johns
was interested in it. But let's just look at
the surface for a moment. This is an object that
actually stands off the wall a few inches. It's canvas that's
on top of plywood. And so it is this slightly
shallow box-like form. And if you look at the surface,
it's really heavily worked. And it's not traditional oil
paint or even the more modern acrylic. This is something
that's called encaustic, which is an ancient
Egyptian painting technique that Johns revived. And other people
have used in history. But it's ancient. And it's translucent
and it's lumpy, but it also allows
you to see through it. And when you look
through this sort of lumpy surface of
the wax what you see are strips of newspaper. It's sort of torn up. And so you can't really read it. There's not a continuous
story, but it is clearly this pigment, this wax,
on top of the debris of our political life. SAL KHAN: And I
think that's why. Maybe you guys are just
doing a good job training me. I mean, this one
really speaks to me, because especially the
texture and the fact that it is not printed. It is handmade and it
has those layers to it. It's a very powerful idea. When you just have
a printed flag, it simplifies what a
country is, or what the ideas a country
represents are in its history. And when you look
at this painting, yes, it's an American flag. But you appreciate,
look, America is a-- there's
context to America. There's a history to America. There's depth to America. There's texture to America. You look closer at America,
it's not this simple idea. There's many, many,
many layers to it. And I think this does
a really good job. And I think this is why this
is a painting a lot of people respond to, even people
who might be traditionally skeptical to modern art. I think they viscerally
feel a lot of those things when they see that. They feel a depth, a connection,
to the narrative of America more than just this very red,
white, and blue, simple idea of it. STEVEN ZUCKER: I think
that that's exactly right. And I think that Johns is
taking this opportunity to re-imagine then
what art can be. That art can still, in some
really fundamental way, represent really complex things. Not necessarily through
the careful rendering or the careful
representation of objects on a table, or a human
face, but through a kind of symbolic language actually
reference, and in some ways, actually depict a very
complex American history. I think that's exactly right. SAL KHAN: We talk a lot
about a lot of artists. What's really of
note-- although, I think this is
one of those pieces that I actually don't
need that much context to really appreciate it. But to go to the next
level of context, I mean, was Jasper Johns
really one of the first to take really powerful
images like an American flag and kind of re-render
them in this type of way? STEVEN ZUCKER: He was. In fact, this is
art that's being produced before pop art exists. And so this idea of
actually turning his canvas, turning his paintbrush,
on a visual form that is itself fixed is
a fascinating idea. Think about what he's giving up. The things that we
value in painting traditionally have to do with
the artist's choice of color, of composition, and those
things are given here. Those are already set. He's not messing with that. And yet, this is still not
entirely a flag so much as a representation of a flag. And in that way, it's walking
on this very narrow edge. SAL KHAN: I mean, it's
really strange to me, because we've talked
about the traditional art. If you go back
500, 800 years ago, it was always representational,
all the way to the Renaissance. And then more modern art
has all been about ideas and pushing our thinking. And this definitely falls
into that latter category. But it really does--
maybe it's just me-- but it emotes
something in me that is aesthetic, that is as
powerful as any of these. And obviously, it's an American
flag, and that by itself can create powerful
emotions, but just the way it was rendered also
creates feelings and depth that I haven't actually felt
from a lot of the modern pieces we've looked at.