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Ancient Mediterranean + Europe
Course: Ancient Mediterranean + Europe > Unit 6
Lesson 2: Pottery- Greek Vase-Painting, an introduction
- Ancient Greek vase production and the black-figure technique
- Dipylon Amphora
- Dipylon Amphora
- Terracotta Krater
- Commemorating the Dead in Greek Geometric Art
- Eleusis Amphora
- Sophilos: a new direction in Greek pottery
- The François Vase: story book of Greek mythology
- Exekias, amphora with Ajax and Achilles playing a game
- Exekias, Amphora with Ajax and Achilles Playing a Game
- Exekias, Dionysos Kylix
- From tomb to museum: the story of the Sarpedon Krater
- The many meanings of the Sarpedon Krater
- Euthymides, Three Revelers
- Niobid Painter, Niobid Krater
- Niobid Krater
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Niobid Painter, Niobid Krater
The Niobid Painter's calyx-krater, an ancient Greek vase, displays two contrasting scenes. One side shows the tragic story of Niobe, whose children were killed by Apollo and Artemis due to her pride. The other side features Herakles, possibly as a sculpture, surrounded by warriors seeking protection before battle. This vase may reflect the influence of lost Greek wall paintings. Speakers: Dr. Beth Harris and Dr. Steven Zucker. Created by Steven Zucker and Beth Harris.
Want to join the conversation?
- The speakers repeatedly refer to Herakles as the god Herakles, but he was part human so would that not make him a demigod and a hero? Did his status change at some point and did greek soldiers worship him as a god at some point?(12 votes)
- Hercules was a demigod, but after Herakles\Hercules's death, he became a god and married Hebe, the goddess of youth. I got this information from this book, which I read a lot: 'Mythology', by Edith Hamilton.(20 votes)
- i read a book that said gods were very good people but that can't be true i mean Zeus kept cheating on his wife, and Hera would blame the Zeus was with and would punish them Apollo and Artemis killed lots of people as kids, and Hades kidnapped someone because he liked her. I wouldn't call the gods hero's and role models but i would call them criminals.(6 votes)
- Graeco-Roman gods are not "people" per se, although they have human shape and qualities (anthropomorphic). The stories of the Graeco-Roman gods are often intended to provide negative moral reinforcement, as in the acts of the gods and goddesses are seen as outrageous, mortals are discouraged from repeating or mimicking those actions. This is a bit different from the Iudaeo-Christian tradition wherein divinity provides positive reinforcement vis-à-vis morality.(8 votes)
- It seems as though one side of the vase is showing the detrimental effects of hubris while the opposite side shows less prideful, skilled warriors asking for help from the gods and receiving. Would it be fair to say that these two scenes are sort of allegorical in how to refer to the gods (ie. ask for help but don't act better than your superior)?(5 votes)
- Yeah, I picked up on that too. It's a story of what happens when you're disrespectful but also then shows the humans being put into their place after the consequences were served.(2 votes)
- Is it me, or does it seem like there are also some subtle, lighter lines that indicate the ground on which these figures are standing/lying, for example at? The little tree at 1:04even seems to be standing on a little hill. I at first thought that these whitish lines were the seams where the shards of the pot had been glued against each other, but they resemble indications of different ground levels far too consistently to be cracks in the pottery. 1:06(4 votes)
- The speakers do mention them. When they talk about Polygnotus the wall painter they are talking about the innovation he (supposedly) made in showing figures at different levels with ground lines to give a sense of depth. The Niobid painter goes further than this by adding the tree however it could also be noted that this tree could be (according to an expert, who happens to be my father, who runs a sawmill) a cedar tree, the cedar being one of Apollo's symbols. This would also fit with Apollo having a lyre (another of his symbols) at his side. This is presumably the artist trying to identify him to even the most casual of viewers.(4 votes)
- Is that really the shape that Ancient Greek bows were made? They seem a very strange shape compared to the much more recent English longbow, which was a single smooth curve. What materials would have been used for a Greek bow?(3 votes)
- From what I could find we don't have much information on the bows from that time period. I did find this site that helps a little bit.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Arcus2.html(3 votes)
- Is that a laurel wreath on Apollo's head? 1:23(2 votes)
- Most likely, since Apollo is often capped with a laurel wreath.(2 votes)
- I was confused about how the story of Niobe and the scene with Herakles in it are related, besides being figures in Greek myths. Why did the sculptor put them on the same vase?(1 vote)
- From the author:I have not yet read a convincing argument that explains the relationship. Nor am I sure that there needs to be one. When I was a child, pop music was consumed on the radio and on 45 rpm records. The "45" often had a hit song on one side and a less popular song on the "B" side. They were never related except that they had been recorded at about the same time.(3 votes)
- Why did Zeus keep cheating on his wife?(1 vote)
- Dear Lord,
The people who created and told the stories of Zeus were likely men, who enjoyed racy stories on cold nights. Since the only history we're talking about here is that of the creation and transmission of stories, this is a good enough reason.(2 votes)
- NONE of the quizzes in the Greek Art -Pottery- section have ANY content. Will this be changed in the future?(1 vote)
- Thanks for the note. I just checked and all three quizzes in this area do have content and are working well for me. Please try again.(1 vote)
- Why is Artemis so stationary, while apollo is in motion?(1 vote)
- There are several possible reasons; the painter may have not wanted to show drapery as complex as Artemis' peplos in motion. Alternately he may have been thinking about the place of women in ancient Greek society and may not have wanted a woman (even a goddess) to be seen striding about all over the place. Finally it could be for composition reasons, Apollo was the central figure and the Niobid painter did not want to distract viewers from him.(1 vote)
Video transcript
(lively piano music) Voiceover: We're in the Louvre and we're looking at a
large ancient Greek vase that dates from middle of the 5th century. It's a calyx-krater by an artist that we call the Niobid Painter. Voiceover: Now a calyx-krater is a large punchbowl basically. The Ancient Greeks used
it to mix wine and water. Their wine was pretty strong. Voiceover: Now the Niobid Painter is known for this particular vase which shows on the back
of it a terrible scene about a mortal woman named Niobe. Niobe had 14 children. Seven daughters and seven sons and she bragged about them as being more numerous and more beautiful than the children of the goddess Leto. Voiceover: That was a bad idea. You never want to display
that kind of hubris to a god or a goddess, and in this case Leto's
children happen to be the god Apollo and the goddess Artemis. Now Apollo is associated with the arts, with music especially,
with the sun perhaps, and Artemis is the goddess of the hunt. Both of those children here exact revenge for their mother. The Greeks were often
concerned about mortals displaying hubris, displaying pride. Here we see Apollo and Artemis killing Niobe's poor children. Voiceover: According to the myth they murdered all 14 of the children. Here we see Artemis reaching back into her quiver for yet another arrow. We see Apollo drawing his bow back and we see the children
littering the field. Voiceover: These figures
still have a kind of stiffness that I associate with the early classical and I think that's especially obvious in the figure of Apollo who strides forward but doesn't seem to have the sense of movement that would be entirely natural given what he's doing. Voiceover: This is red figure painting and that means that we're seeing bodies that are part of the red clay of the pot silhouette by a black background. It allows for a tremendous
amount of detail. For instance in Apollo's body the tension to his abdomen, to his face. We see Artemis also with
very delicate rendering of the folds of her drapery. Notice that both the goddess and the god are rendered in perfect profile whereas the dying children
are more frontal or 3/4. Voiceover: There is a stiffness there. Voiceover: This is a period
that we call the Severe Style and it's just this moment when the archaic is becoming the classical that we know, for instance from the
sculptures of the acropolis. Voiceover: The other thing
that's so obvious here is that where Greek vases before this had the figures on a single ground line. The figures occupy different levels. It seems as though the artist, the Niobid Painter was attempting to give us some sense
of an illusion of space with some figures in the foreground and some in the background although they're all the same size. Voiceover: That's right, there's no diminishing sense of scale but we can get a sense of the idea that there are different ground plans when we look at the tree on the upper right of the scene. Let's go around to the other side because we have a very different image in contrast to the violence of the back. Here in the center, in the
place of honor on the vase, the hero Herakles. Herakles was part mortal, part god. He's identifiable because he holds a club and because he has a lion skin. Voiceover: Now notice that he's in the middle of the vase literally. His feet don't touch the ground line. He's in the middle and figures are placed all around him. Again, that idea of the artist suggesting a sense of depth. Art historians think that this shows the influence of Greek wall painting, none of which survived. Voiceover: In fact, we
think that this vase might be a kind of
copying of wall painting by an artist whose name
we know, Polygnotus who painted both in Athens and at the Sanctuary of
Delphi, North of Athens. Voiceover: He was credited
as being the first artist to paint figures in depth. Voiceover: What we may
be seeing on this vase is an attempt to translate that wall painting here onto a vase. That would be an extraordinary thing since virtually no Ancient Greek wall painting has survived. Voiceover: What's going on here? What is Herakles doing? Why is he surrounded by
all of these warriors some of whom are reclining, some of whom are standing and what is Athena doing
over to the left of him? Voiceover: One of the
more prominent theories suggest that this is not actually a representation of the god Herakles so much as a representation of a sculpture of the god Herakles. That is, this is a
painting of the scultpure of the mythic figure. What's happening is that Greek soldiers are coming to honor Herakles asking him for protection
before they go into battle. Voiceover: Right. At the very end of the
archaic period 490 B.C.E the Greeks battled the Persians and against overwhelming odds defeated the enormous Persian army. This may show Athenian soldiers asking for Herakles' protection before the battle at Marathon. If you look very closely
it's almost impossible to see there may be barely visible incised lines that suggest that Herakles is
actually standing on a podium which would support the idea tat this was the sculpture of the god rather than the god amongst these men. Voiceover: The relaxation
expressed by the figures is remarkable to me especially the figure
reclining at the bottom who seems to be pulling himself up using the leverage of his spears. Voiceover: That relaxation
is in such contrast to the violence of the murders on the other side of the vase. It's a great reminder of the way that Greeks love to contrast the active against the passive, the complex against the plain and to draw sharp contrast in both imagery and in their technique. Voiceover: Art historian conjecture that the style that the
figures on different levels comes from Greek wall painting, and we know about Greek wall painting from writers who celebrated it. The subject matter that we see here is still very much a mystery and the relationship of these
two stories to one another is still very uncertain. (lively piano music)