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Ancient Mediterranean + Europe
Course: Ancient Mediterranean + Europe > Unit 6
Lesson 5: Classical- Polykleitos, Doryphoros (Spear Bearer)
- Polykleitos, Doryphoros (Spear-Bearer)
- Polykleitos, Doryphoros
- Myron, Discobolus (Discus Thrower), Roman copy of an ancient Greek bronze
- The Athenian Agora and the experiment in democracy
- Parthenon (Acropolis)
- The Parthenon
- Destruction, Memory, and Monuments: The Many Lives of the Parthenon
- Phidias, Parthenon sculptures (pediments, metopes and frieze)
- Who owns the Parthenon sculptures?
- Egyptian blue on the Parthenon sculptures
- "Plaque of the Ergastines" fragment from the frieze on the east side of the Parthenon
- Parthenon
- The Erechtheion
- Caryatid and column from the Erechtheion
- Temple of Athena Nike on the Athenian Acropolis
- Victory (Nike) Adjusting Her Sandal, Temple of Athena Nike (Acropolis)
- Victory (Nike) Adjusting her Sandal
- Grave Stele of Hegeso
- Grave Stele of Hegeso
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Myron, Discobolus (Discus Thrower), Roman copy of an ancient Greek bronze
Myron, Discobolus (Discus Thrower), Roman copy of an ancient Greek bronze from c. 450 B.C.E., Classical Period (Palazzo Massimo alle Terme). Speakers: Dr. Beth Harris & Dr. Steven Zucker. Created by Beth Harris and Steven Zucker.
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- What is he leaning against? Is it an actual thing being represented, or is it just for support?(11 votes)
- It's a support to help bear the weight of the sculpture.(20 votes)
- How did art historians knew that these marbles were copies from Greek bronzes if most of the originals have been lost?(8 votes)
- From the author:We have some Greek bronzes and multiple marbles from Rome and of course both the Greeks and the Romans wrote about their art.(25 votes)
- If we study Roman copies to understand the Ancient Greeks, is it also how we study the Romans? Or do Romans have their own original styles in addition to their love for the Greek style?(6 votes)
- The Romans produced their own art that was not copies, but it was all based on that of the Greeks. However, they adapted it--they were a different culture who saw the world differently(7 votes)
- Why has depiction of an idealized, or perfect human form become passe in art?
Look at sculpture on a college campus, and mostly (except for the mandatory statue of the founders) non-representational.
Why has the presentation of nobility in art become an object of historical interest? If an artist today tries to present what is best in people in representational sculpture, they will be treated with contempt.(0 votes)- I think art is part of the period the artist lives in, and it can not remain the same throughout the generations. If a great culture already developed one idea to the max, there is no need or will to recreate the same idea over and over again. Perhaps the idea of nobility is no longer relevant to the feelings of artists today, because it is no longer a great part of society, and they prefer to work on subjects that our more close to today's life. Also, sometimes an idea in art, such as nudity, remains but changes its meaning. Nudity for greeks is not the same as nudity to people in the middle ages, or the 19th century or today. So the representation remains but the idea behind it is the reflection of the society of the period.(7 votes)
- honestly, at, i thought that it looked strained because it seems to me that he would be trying to throw this heavy bronze discus really far, because it was a sport in the ancient Olympics (the first ones in Greece) . So, wouldn't they be trying to win? 2:06(1 vote)
- It may just be the lighting in this image, but the statue's face is actually more calm than one might expect, meaning there isn't a grimace or even furrowed brows of concentration. It isn't that these athletes did not want to win, most likely they definitely looked more strained throwing a discus, but the statue is not trying to convey that pose, but rather, an idealized one, where athleticism is of no effort. It is a young, healthy, fit body with no strain.(4 votes)
- What is the sculpture atcalled? 2:23(1 vote)
- The sculpture atis the "David" sculpted by Gian Lorenzo Bernini in 1624. 2:23(3 votes)
- How similar are the copies to the originals? Did the Romans attempt to replicate the statue as diligently as possible, or did they change aspects of it to better suit their tastes?(1 vote)
- Copies range in quality - some are first-rate, others of lesser quality. Possessing copies - of sculpture, of painting - was an important way for elite Romans to communicate their wealth and socio-economic status. Take the Villa of the Papyri at Herculaneum - its garden was decorated with a carefully chosen set of portrait busts - copies of Greek originals - that were curated by the owner to make a statement about himself and his erudition. You can see the portraits here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_bronze_busts_from_the_Villa_of_the_Papyri_(Herculaneum)(3 votes)
- Was the Discus Thrower on display by himself, part of a group of statues (ie: javelin, wrestling), or nobody has any idea?(1 vote)
- It was by itself generally one in each building.(2 votes)
- At, I can see two symmetrical protusions in the figure's hair. What do they mean? Is there any relationship with the horns in Michelangelo's Moses? 2:36(1 vote)
- Did the original bronze sculpture need a support? If so, did it look anything like the support for the marble copy?(1 vote)
- That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer, but in the video on the Charioteer of Delphi, they said that the tensile strength of bronze was enough to support free-standing limbs. It seems possible that the bronze statue of Discobolus would not have needed a support.(1 vote)
Video transcript
[MUSIC PLAYING] SPEAKER 1: Ancient Greek
sculptures, bronze or marble, are frozen. But that doesn't mean
that the ancient Greeks didn't want to convey movement. SPEAKER 2: In this case,
movement that you couldn't even see with the naked eye. SPEAKER 1: What
we're looking at, is a sculpture by an
artist whose name is Myron. We've lost his original, but
we have a later Roman marble copy of the "Discus Thrower." SPEAKER 2: The original was in
bronze from the fifth century BCE. SPEAKER 1: About 450, 460. SPEAKER 2: And what
we're looking at is one of many Roman copies. In fact, there's one
next to the other in this museum, a
testament to how popular these were among the Romans. SPEAKER 1: The
sculpture shows a man who is at that moment where
his body is fully wound. Look at the way
that his right leg is bearing the
weight of his body. His left leg, the toes are
bent under, dragging slightly, and he's about to
throw that discus. This is a moment of
tremendous tension, but it's also this moment
stasis, of stillness, right before the action. SPEAKER 2: Athletes
and art historians have debated whether this
is even an actual pose that the discus thrower
takes in the process. SPEAKER 1: It's so interesting,
because when we think back about the history
of the Greek figure, we think first of the
Archaic Kouros, who is so stiff and so stylized. And then we have the
tremendous breakthroughs of people like
Polykleitos who developed an understanding of the body,
and showed in a contrapposto. But here we have
something that's so dynamic, and so
complex, I mean just look at the arc of the
shoulders and the arms, and the way that
they reverse the arc of the twist of the hips. SPEAKER 2: That is
the overriding concern of Myron, the sculptor, to
capture the aesthetic qualities here. The sense of
balance and harmony, and the beauty in the
proportions of the body. SPEAKER 1: There is
kind of anti-realism here, for all of its
careful naturalism. There is no real
strain within the body. It is absolutely at
rest, and ideal, even in this extreme pose. SPEAKER 2: If you
think about a figure from much later, but in a
similar pose of movement, of athletic energy,
like Bernini's "David." SPEAKER 1: Well, that's got
all this torsion, absolutely. SPEAKER 2: That
figure expresses all of the physical
power in the face. He's clenching his teeth, right? SPEAKER 1: That's true. And his brow is
really knit forward. But here, the face
is absolutely serene. And it reminds me
of the consistency with which the Greeks always
maintain their nobility, even in battle, even in terrible
situations with monsters. And here, even at
this moment when he's about to
release the discus. SPEAKER 2: Right, that
nobility, that calm in the face, is a sign of a nobility
of the human being. SPEAKER 1: Well,
this is a sport, and the man is naked, which
is what the Greeks did. But there was a
real logic there. Why would you
cover up the beauty of the body in sport, which
is, of course, a celebration of what the human
body can achieve. This is really a way to remind
ourselves of the Greeks concern with the potential of humanity,
the potential of the mind, and the potential of the body. SPEAKER 2: Taking
that extra step to become even more ideal,
more heroic, more noble, than even the finest athlete. SPEAKER 1: It is a perfect form. [MUSIC PLAYING]